Its eye-opening. Once you add in the financial details and post those, Ill come back and share a few thoughts that will be specific to your situation. I also have $35k in undergraduate debt. For some students the answer is that its too risky but for many others its not. As far as WashU vs Michigan, is Michigan worth 80K more? Here's how to avoid student loan debt: Focus on career outcomes, not One is from Indiana for 90,000. Villanova Law School is one of the best schools in the country, ranking 89th out of 100, with a 48.53% acceptance rate. In my travels Ive found that: Im really not sold on spending 3 years (possibly more) in the midwest; I really like Arizona, but am not totally sold on the legal market there; Boston has a great legal market, all of the people with whom Ive spoken in Boston have been higher on BC than BU (except for the people currently at BU), and Boston is by far the most expensive place to live of the three. Thanks for the message. But I understand the siren call of a top-ranked school like UVA, and in one sense you are directly lowering your chances of obtaining the career path you seek if you choose BYU. Below is the complete list of schools with early action, organized alphabetically by state. Im a believer that people perform best when they are happy and comfortable, and Cleveland looks like a great setup for you. #16/15 University of Texas (8,000/yr scholarship) Total COA $147,000 Small firm 6.40% Overall Employment 85.50%, #22/16 Notre Dame (25,000/yr scholarship) Total COA $171,000 Small firm 1.60% Overall Employment 86.00%, #31/18 University of Georgia (in-state and 12,500/yr scholarship) Total COA $78,870 Small firm 12.70% Overall Employment 89.50% (Not UBE), #38/30 University of Wisconsin (full tuition and fees) Total COA $66,000 Small firm 17.40% Overall Employment 85.20% (Not UBE), #45/none University of Utah (full tuition plus GA stipend) Total COA $56,250 Small firm 23.50% Overall Employment 74.10%, #76/49 University of Nebraska (full tuition and fees) Total COA $54,000 Small firm 24.80% Overall Employment 76.10%. Thanks for the message! With how competitive this admissions cycle has been, Im wondering if reapplying next cycle would potentially give me more scholarship money and acceptance to schools Im currently waitlisted at. Not opposed to some detours along the way to clerk or live in a new city (NYC, LA, etc). Please let me know how things play outIm really interested to see where you finally end up. Early Action Schools: Complete List of EA Colleges - PrepScholar . Woohoo! But Im conflicted, because I also am really drawn to Yales lack of grades and general chiller/theoretical atmosphere! If you went public service and used UVAs VLFP II program(https://www.law.virginia.edu/public-service/loan-forgiveness), then you could severaly discount costs but of course you have to meet the program requirements. Still on the waitlist for Duke so maybe you can make a call for me kidding of course, Thanks for the reply! NYC wasnt my cup of tea, and I found Ann Arbor more liveable. If you can, please put together a breakdown of each school (spreadsheet or whatever works) so you can line all this up and see it in black and white. I suppose thats a long-winded way of saying that the lower overall debt does make a difference in my opinion, although again you have to be comfortable with what that looks like on a monthly basis. I got into U of MD and American U as well. Knowing that I want to practice in Minnesota, ideally Intellectual Property law and eventually break into the Federal circuit does it make sense to take the money and run? Vandy is a great school in one of the coolest towns in this country, but if you are trying to get a job in a city where they dont know Vandy, then it isnt worth as much to you. Even though its not a full ride I would still come out with not little debt compared to what it could be. Thanks for your advice. BYU, on the other hand, could be characterized as resulting in a narrower set of outcomes, with few potential bad outcomes but also fewer topline results. He is not intimated by NYUs grading system but he does prefer the Yale and Harvard approach to grading and we assume does lower some risk. $7k in 15 minutes, is fine. Im not sure thats a perfectly clear answer, but hopefully it helps a bit. I do not know if you have good answers for these questions, I just have been feeling like my Duke/NU dreams are not realistic lately and, given there is nothing I can do about a 10 year old undergrad GPA, am wondering if it even matters if I apply aside from maybe helping to negotiate more aid at Wash U. I want you to look at a few things, such as the employment rating (WashUs is demonstrably better) as well as things like the large firm rating and clerkships rating. Great, thanks for the extra info! I do have passion for serving the public good and that getting my law degree will come with skills I want to have, but I dont consider myself someone who has an interest in working 50 hour work weeks with a firm practicing something I dont have passion for. Scholarship $YYY per year ______________________________ Total $ZZZ per year resulting in $WWW in debt after 3 years $SSS per month. Northeastern (67) 90,000- total with scholarship taken into consideration 133,509 pros: location, practical experience, have interested fields cons: lower rank, competition with BC and BU students 2. With that being said, I would definitely prefer to keep living in Madison, but it would not be impossible or especially burdensome for me to move for three years at this point in my life. I dont know you well enough to really contribute to this decision (I wish I didit would be easier, right? But I was just wondering about a few other questions: 1. I also think Boston College would be a great fit for me and I like the higher rank, supportive alumni network and professors, and connections on the east coast. Im interested in PI not sure if I want to go the government direction or the non-profit direction though. Good schools dont lose students at that rate, and you can see the UC number was just 1% last year. The decision factors involved get very personal here, and arent of the type that I can easily evaluate. However, given the size of your scholarship at William & Mary, even living at home wont bring GW down to that cost level. 9. I do not want to be stuck in one employment market for the next 3-4 decades but am otherwise pretty flexible on that end besides generally not wanting to live in huge cities due to high COL. I attended University of Florida for my undergrad and was not very dedicated coming out with a lower but not terrible GPA, but worked really hard and made a very good LSAT score. The two options Im considering are Vanderbilt and University of Michigan. UVA No scholarship + $60,000 total cost of living = approx. Next, as we will see, that rankings/perception difference has a significant impact on job prospects (all numbers drawn from LST Reports athttps://www.lstreports.com/schools/): Employment Score: 75.0% Under-employment score: 15.9%, Large Firm: 26% Small Firm: 15.3% Federal Clerkship: 3.9% Public Service: 17.5%, Employment Score: 78.9% Under-employment score: 13.5%, Large Firm : 37.3% Small Firm: 4.3% Federal Clerkship: 9.7% Public Service: 11.9%, Employment Score: 44.4% Under-employment score: 23.8%, Large Firm: 0.8% Small Firm: 22.2% Federal Clerkship: 0.8% Public Service: 23%. Florida has the better reputation and ranking, but costs $34K more, and its miles away from that NYC market and so doesnt do quite as well with big firm placement. A school like GW knows how important the rankings are, and it wont be lost on them that they need to get back up there, and theyll put in the resources to make that happen. It is nice to see that I am not the only having to make tough decisions about law school. and thats the problemwe cant see into the future. I am currently debating between attending 3 schools right now: Pitt, Drexel, and Duquesne. UT: $153K Duke: $284.5K (using their numbers and assuming no aid). And your grades are *everything* for your future prospects. Lets start with getting the analysis I linked aboveit will help, Im certain of that , Hi, Im hoping for some help in deciding between BU and Northeastern (Im still waiting to hear from BC and if I get in that will probably be on the list as well). He is pretty dead set on in pursuing an academic career, but we recognize the ultra competiveness of this field. That lower debt comes with lower opportunity. Is it a case of lies, damn lies, and statistics? I dont dislike Marquette Law school. And that decision depends entirely on how committed you are to biglaw/international law. So, now were down to UNC for about $40K total vs Alabama on full ride? When we start talking about schools, its easy for the money to get abstracted. Well, with very little study she did well on the LSAT (lower 160s) and applied to 8 schools to see how it would go. What you need to do is find that total COA for each school, then determine the monthly payment that results form that. Finances are a strong consideration, but I also dont want to discount the ranking of these schools. I agree that the worst case scenario isnt desirable, but if it is manageable then thats a valuable piece of information for you as you ponder this decision. I have a little more information now as I am still deciding and GW added a small scholarship. As usual, my disclaimer is that this assumes all else is equal, and that each school is a school you want to attend and would be a good place for you. I speak Spanish so right now I want to do work with that population or do policy/human rights work, but I am honestly really open to exploring other career paths. Nobody likes debt, and if youve read the other discussions youve seen me repeatedly recommend that applicants considering going into debt should look at the repayment schedules and truly understand what $150K-$250K of debt looks like on a monthly basis. Based on my LSAT score and college GPA, I definitely feel that I will be able to perform closer to the top of my class at NYLS. Home Is Villanova A Top Tier School? Either way, your choices are solid and you are in a strong position. In an e-mail, he told me that it's most important to find an education students can "afford without debt.". Congrats! It's a bunch of genuinely nice people. In your case, Penn simply has a more portable and recognizable name than UCLA, and this is doubly so on the East Coast (as you noted before). Thanks! Thanks for the message! Right now, my dream career trajectory would be obtaining a federal clerkship after graduation, working for the WI state attorney generals office for a couple years, and then after getting enough experience, working for the US Attorneys office for the Western District of WI, located in Madison. Full Sticker on both. Hope you can be of assistance! Obviously Duke and Penn arent solid options, but they could still be worth considering. This is another textbook example of the free education vs debt and a better name decision. Please let me know if that helps and good luck! I definitely feel the 8k/yr is worth it over a Hofstra full ride. Paul is a big fan of the Boston Celtics and New England Patriots. Also, how likely are you to stay near the school? Here's how to avoid student loan debt and prepare for a great career Thank you very much for the advice! Speaking of which, Im not sure you have a solid feel/desire to go biglaw anyway given your comment that but the question is whether I want to work in Big Law or not. The best thing I can say here is thats quite a bit to pay for something that you arent at all sure about. the appeal of the 3+3 is that you avoid taking the LSAT, but if you have a 3.8+ AND a high LSAT, then you are throwing away a lot of money by going this route. Theyd be my front runner for you right now. I know I want to practice big law after I graduate, but I am open to practicing in many cities. Then, since it may be that you end up in Louisiana or even on the other side in Texas, LSU has its advantages as well. So, whatever decision you make here is going to have to result in it being worth the monthly payment of the first number. COA difference is about 70K over 3 years. Then again, your paralegal background can help offset that and would ease the concerns of a law firm, especially on the theory that youd acclimate even faster and be more efficient. Been stationed here before. The HYS schools are like the superpowers of the law school universe, and offer a name that opens doors no matter where you go. But regardless, congrats to you on submitting an obviously awesome application! The School of Medicine is the most prestigious of the nine schools that make up Emory University. Examine where they practice in terms of geography, firm type, etc. Underemployment score: UNC 17.4% NCCU 39.9%. So, Id do more research there if you can. Ive been looking into Cardozo as well but have only been offered $22,000 per year. Your situation is so open-ended right now thats its really difficult to provide any insights until some of the options become clearer. If I get in to Berkeley, its unlikely Id get any kind of substantial aid from them. Im generally quite anti-debt, but there are times when its reasonable to take some debt on. Their LST report is what is holding me back though. I feel like those rankings are always changing, so I cant tell how reliable they are each year. that is, $120K doesnt feel like anything significant because its just numbers on paper right now. It also wont affect employers at this point. Mostly, I want to be successful and make as much money as possible. I think a lot of her decision came down to a sure thing at Ohio State vs an uncertain path and delaying that path for another year. You mention I do not have any connections with anyone who actually is in the international legal sector, or who has even worked in business abroad which makes me wonder if this is based on experience with international work or moreso a desire to work in a field that sounds exciting but for which you dont have a background in for perspective. Then when you toss in that commute for AU, I think that Maryland looks very strong. From a purely economic perspective,the cost of attending a top law school is what you pay to mitigate risk. One way to see that is to examine the job placement of Penn grads (via LST Reports athttps://www.lstreports.com/schools/penn/jobs/), where you can see that federal clerkships go to 10.6% of the class. If finance isnt a problem, then it comes down to where you want to go after law school and your personal preferences. And, of course, this step is quite revealing: although Note Dame costs more, BC very slightly outperforms it (note: the numbers are all under 50%, which is saying hat your chances are less than half of going down this pathway with any of these schools). 1 among public universities and is tied for 19th among all national universities in the USN&WR Best Colleges rankings. That said, sometimes the shades of grey lean in one direction moreso than the other, and I tend to feel thats the case here. Start here:https://www.lstreports.com/compare/capital/miami/loyola-la/. Please let me know if that helps. So, its not about ranking, but about the fact that mathematically WashU gives you more choices. With my stats, I can comfortably get into Hastings, Berkeley Im probably like 50-60% chance. Considering OCI is only 11-12 months away, I should be okay if I go to BC and keep in contact right? For me, prestige doesnt help much if you have middling grades, and at good law schools that can easily happenthe competition is fierce. Thats messed up, honestly. He has worked in both public and private schools, as well as colleges and universities. I ask since I dont know where you live, and these three schools are all across the US (literally! Upperclassmen are so incredibly helpful. COA= 60,500/yr 25,000 (scholly) = $35,500/yr My breakdown: 1,500 books and supplies 5,000 personal expenses and transportation (traveling home some weekends or moving) 12,000 room + board (through summer) 42,000 tuition. So, between Florida and Miami, Id choose Florida. I actually just got offered a 25k/yr scholarship to UNC today, so that makes the decision a little tougher. Drexel is indeed growing, but you cant bet on the future of a school or its ranking/prestigethings can change there. The second step would be to break down the financials in the same way I did for Mary above. Thanks for the reply! I would carefully consider those costs and how much youd save, because every dollar you dont save is a dollar of debt you must pay off eventually. It simply means youll have some slightly unique choices to make when applying, like collecting your letters of recommendation from your professional career rather than your academic lifeI doubt youre still in touch with college professors from your undergrad days, anywayand whether youd want to attend full-time in law school, or enter a part-time program which many schools offer. employment scores are very similar, but inside those numbers you can see Fordham has advantages in hiring at national firms (biglaw!) The only outcome Im absolutely hoping to avoid is working at a small rural law firm coming out of law school. Lets start with ASU, Indiana, and Case. Hi Dave! I know that judgeship isnt something I can plan for really, or even expect, but I do think a clerkship would go a long way to help make that happen. But if you arent committed to at least heavily pursuing that path, its a lot of money to take on. Villanova Middle School. I am still concerned about Minnesotas Biglaw placement which seems unusually low for a T20-T25 school. Your chances are slightly better at BU due to their LSAT medians being lower, if I recall correctly. I am interested in pursuing family or disability rights law, but am not positive where I will end up practicing as my husband is still in school at LSU as an engineer and can be placed anywhere. The main time constraint I am currently concerned about is ASU. If you can handle the winters in Ithaca, and generally like the campus and school environment, then there arent too many other factors that would be relevant enough to dissuade you from attending Cornell. So, lets look at your main concern: placing in DC or Texas. Villanova: How prestigious? - College Confidential Forums The biggest benefits to attending Michigan over Northwestern would be the community vibe and what seems to be a very strong contingent of PI students, though the school is a little more expensive. I foresee two potential undesirable scenarios with regard to either taking the money or the prestige: 1) If I take the money and run, I will obviously have to work my tail off to put myself in the same conversation as a Fordham grad, not to mention Columbia, NYU, and the other NY school grads. Schools are ranked according to their performance across a set of widely accepted indicators of excellence. Im currently debating on Chicago Kent College of Law or the University of Illinois College of Law, Kent has offered me a full tuition scholarship and U of I has given me a 60% scholarship. Id like to stay in the south. In my opinion thats the best place for you to start here. Cost of living in Provo and Charlottesville is comparable, so its not necessarily a large factor. I got accepted to #88 LSU with a small scholarship with my June LSAT score. However, I ultimately want to practice in New York, and Penn places significantly better there (45%) compared to UCLA (7%). This is important since its your long-term life goal, whereas where you live for law school is a just a three-year decision (and less with summers back in Madison, if it works out that way). January 19, 2016 Scholarship vs. Prestige: When to Take the Money and Run Update! The answer for each person is different, and as Ive spoken with all the students in this comments section Ive found that each person has slightly different ways that they value and analyze the elements in play. I feel it isnt what I want, but should I let geographic location make me forego the best school Ive received a great package from? Let me ask you a question here: is your idea to get an LLM based on the fact that you want to keep working while waiting to get into a JD program, or is it solely aimed at using that to get into a JD program? Brooklyn also appears to offer a wider breadth of classes relavent to my interest in health law than Marquette. Is cost a considerable factor here? Causing sleepless nights. Im really glad to hear you are going through all the expenses and looking carefully at each option. In other words, 4 out of 5 Bowen grads stay in the area, and thus they flood the market each year. WNE is in the region I want to work, but attending an unranked school gives be concern. That makes a difference since the Cost of Living (COL) in Ann Arbor is generally less than Nashville. From the data I found at LST, I can see that big law employment rates (and employment rates in general) favor Fordham in spite of being ranked lower. Im leaning towards a compromise situation, taking Tulane, Wake or one of the VA schools, as they all seem portable to an extent but also much cheaper than Emory. So, that reduces the field to Florida and St. Johns for me. But the price is another 3 years in a city youve already been in for 5, and passing up a chance for an entirely new environment. It can be eye-opening! I graduated from the National Uni of Singapore recently with a law degree and reasonable grades in law school (not too bad but nothing spectacular. Overall, I have some doubts about CM Law but they have risen in recent rankings, which is a sign they are working on it (and their offer to you reflects that). I think 30-40%. From a clerkship standpoint, UVA is obviously the strongest, with placement rates about double that of the other two schools. And here I dont see that big number being justified. I am just preparing my applications now, and hope to score at/over a 175 LSAT and ask for fee waivers, but I am wondering if it even matters. You have a difficult decision here, but the good news is that you have a wealth of choices! And law school is so unusual that even if youve been a great student your whole life there is no guarantee that that will continue in law school. What are your thoughts? The acceptance rate at Villanova is 28.2%. I also havent yet heard from BC which is very frustrating as their deposit deadline is April 10th. Hey Dave, thanks for responding so quickly! Im using my full ride offer and an offer of 120K from UC Davis to negotiate for more at UCI and hopefully then using that higher offer from UCI to negotiate with UCLA. But you pay a price for it, and Im not sure youre that committed at this point. Thanks, its no problem! I may try studying for the LSAT this summer and test it out. 4. Its tough, but remember that every dollar of debt you take on is a dollar plus interest you have to pay back. For example, if Yale grad comes up against a Pepperdine grad, if all else is equal then the Yale grad will have an advantage. Is it worth it to you? What is your opinion on choosing the full ride vs. 10k a year for a school ranked just a little higher but not top tier. I am much more concerned with having better legal career opportunities in general, not just Biglaw opportunities. Like any decision, to me its about narrowing the field then visiting if needed. The L25 medians of both are 161 and 163 respectively so it seems my 163 is in the ballpark. And for academic positions, his grades will be a huge deal. We are batting 1000 here! But heres the lay of the land as I see it: GEORGETOWN: Marginal cost (GI Bill + scholarship covers about 99% of cost) Ive been admitted to Georgetowns evening program, which means I will be able to stay in the Navy and keep both my commission and my full salary while Im in law school. Please let me know if the above helps. Emory, by comparison, is much lower on the clerkship spots, but combined their number is 43.9%very similar overall. If its a significant amount more, thats when Id start looking at Hastings more seriously. Thanks! The starting point here should be for you to really work out where you want to gothe list of schools you applied to is quite wide-ranging, and I dont get a sense from it what your interests or priorities are. U.S. Newsuses numerous indicators of excellence in determining the rankings, including academic reputation, student retention, faculty resources, student selectivity, financial resources, alumni giving and graduation rate performance. Id generally tend toward the free ride since the two schools arent that far apart in rankings, but it would be helpful to know the *exact* debt load youd be looking at upon graduation from Illinois, and the job figures from LSTReports.com for each school wouldnt hurt either. Another large concern is place of living. I tend to be debt-averse but also conscious of job outcomes as a key factor. Wisconsin put you in public service almost certainly. I do want my law job to involve science in some way (I have an M.S. Housing, books, etc..I am just wondering why one would still have 30k a year in debt, without having to pay any tuition? I am agonizing over this decision and need some input from someone KNOWLEDGEABLE and who knows the state of TODAYS legal market. They also have a huge national reach. Years ago, this wouldnt have even been a conversation. That allows us to compare apples to apples. among others. It unquestionably would not be for me personally.
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